Mechanized Assault & eXploration Reloaded » Talk

ChuckSooDo	Apr 07, 2009 7:00 am
Subject: Single Player / Funny story I actually stumble across this page as part of my due diligence. You see I have a group of friends that used to play M.A.X. together a lot and we got to reminiscing and got the idea to remake the game to support multiplayer and fix some of the old bugs and make it run on modern computers. I have a degree in computer science but none of my other friends knew anything about computers so I was looking around to see if I could put a team together. Then I found this site. Seems like you guys already have a pretty good start, it's encouraging. Anyway, one thing we always loved about M.A.X. is that the AI seemed to be legitimately intelligent, unlike any other game we ever played. It seemed to figure out our moves with almost human intelligence. I was wondering if you guys here had given any thought about redoing the AI. The original source code seems to have perished in a fire, and I think it would be a great challenge to try. The AI would almost certainly be similar to the kind of programming that goes into Deep Blue. Since the board is broken up into grids it makes it much easier to finely control the AI. Of course it would still be no easy task. I would probably use Lisp, since it's the old standby for AI, but others might be good for Chess-like logical structures. Just wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts on this.

ChuckSooDo

Apr 07, 2009 7:00 am

Subject: Single Player / Funny story

I actually stumble across this page as part of my due diligence. You see I have a group of friends that used to play M.A.X. together a lot and we got to reminiscing and got the idea to remake the game to support multiplayer and fix some of the old bugs and make it run on modern computers. I have a degree in computer science but none of my other friends knew anything about computers so I was looking around to see if I could put a team together. Then I found this site. Seems like you guys already have a pretty good start, it's encouraging.

Anyway, one thing we always loved about M.A.X. is that the AI seemed to be legitimately intelligent, unlike any other game we ever played. It seemed to figure out our moves with almost human intelligence. I was wondering if you guys here had given any thought about redoing the AI. The original source code seems to have perished in a fire, and I think it would be a great challenge to try. The AI would almost certainly be similar to the kind of programming that goes into Deep Blue. Since the board is broken up into grids it makes it much easier to finely control the AI. Of course it would still be no easy task. I would probably use Lisp, since it's the old standby for AI, but others might be good for Chess-like logical structures. Just wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts on this.

beko	Apr 07, 2009 10:47 am
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story Not yet. There was a guy going to do some sort of AI-Client in Java that could connect to a MAXR host but I never heared about him again. He did however mention that he won't have time for that in the next months so perhaps he'll show up again. As for us: We'd like to see AI too but we set priority to multiplayer only for now. The core team is small and nobody here has any experience on writing AI code.

beko

Apr 07, 2009 10:47 am

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

Not yet. There was a guy going to do some sort of AI-Client in Java that could connect to a MAXR host but I never heared about him again. He did however mention that he won't have time for that in the next months so perhaps he'll show up again.

As for us: We'd like to see AI too but we set priority to multiplayer only for now. The core team is small and nobody here has any experience on writing AI code.

Eiko	Apr 07, 2009 10:55 am
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story Quote by beko: As for us: We'd like to see AI too but we set priority to multiplayer only for now. The core team is small and nobody here has any experience on writing AI code. But I'll try to support everybody, who wants to develop an AI with the interface to maxr, documentation and answering questions

Eiko

Apr 07, 2009 10:55 am

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

Quote by beko:

As for us: We'd like to see AI too but we set priority to multiplayer only for now. The core team is small and nobody here has any experience on writing AI code.

But I'll try to support everybody, who wants to develop an AI with the interface to maxr, documentation and answering questions Smiling

beko	Apr 07, 2009 11:02 am
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story Sure we do - did I have to mention that?

beko

Apr 07, 2009 11:02 am

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

Sure we do - did I have to mention that? Shy

Eiko	Apr 07, 2009 11:08 am
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story I just wanted to encourage ChuckSooDo to give it a try

Eiko

Apr 07, 2009 11:08 am

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

I just wanted to encourage ChuckSooDo to give it a try Wink

Nager	Apr 07, 2009 2:54 pm
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story I think of MAX as first and foremost a Multiplayer game. While it can be enjoyable in Singleplayer for a time, the depth that Multiplayer mode adds to the game is staggering. Apart from the obvious difference of having human opponents instead of an AI (however well designed it may be) there are two main points: - Multiplayer on a higher level imposes harsh time limitations on you - and therefore the necessity to think, act and response quickly as well as control your units efficiently and plan ahead. This aspect is missing in single player where you can think and finetune everything as long as you want to. - Simultaneous movements adds a fascinating realtime strategy aspect to the game. When you control your units at the same time, the whole concept of "Micromanagement" comes into play, a realtime contest of actions and reactions - as well as Multitasking when you have to keep eyes on several things at once. Singleplayer and Multiplayer in MAX are worlds apart. Not everybody instantly likes the core aspects of multiplayer gameplay, but once you find yourself in control of them it's hard to imagine going back to playing an AI for anything else than practice reasons. Even if you're a Newbie I think it best to just start playing Multiplayer and not get used to playing an anti-AI-style of bunkering up above everything else which won't get you very far against a good human opponent. I don't want to persuade you not to give it a try - programming an AI can be a very rewarding challenge by itself, i imagine - but I still think that Singleplayer MAX is nothing more than a "bonus" to a game that really shines in Multiplayer by combining the best aspects of turn based strategy and RTS games.

Nager

Apr 07, 2009 2:54 pm

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

I think of MAX as first and foremost a Multiplayer game. While it can be enjoyable in Singleplayer for a time, the depth that Multiplayer mode adds to the game is staggering.

Apart from the obvious difference of having human opponents instead of an AI (however well designed it may be) there are two main points:

- Multiplayer on a higher level imposes harsh time limitations on you - and therefore the necessity to think, act and response quickly as well as control your units efficiently and plan ahead. This aspect is missing in single player where you can think and finetune everything as long as you want to.
- Simultaneous movements adds a fascinating realtime strategy aspect to the game. When you control your units at the same time, the whole concept of "Micromanagement" comes into play, a realtime contest of actions and reactions - as well as Multitasking when you have to keep eyes on several things at once.

Singleplayer and Multiplayer in MAX are worlds apart. Not everybody instantly likes the core aspects of multiplayer gameplay, but once you find yourself in control of them it's hard to imagine going back to playing an AI for anything else than practice reasons. Even if you're a Newbie I think it best to just start playing Multiplayer and not get used to playing an anti-AI-style of bunkering up above everything else which won't get you very far against a good human opponent.

I don't want to persuade you *not* to give it a try - programming an AI can be a very rewarding challenge by itself, i imagine - but I still think that Singleplayer MAX is nothing more than a "bonus" to a game that really shines in Multiplayer by combining the best aspects of turn based strategy and RTS games.

Sal	Apr 08, 2009 2:53 pm
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story Quote: I think of MAX as first and foremost a Multiplayer game. While it can be enjoyable in Singleplayer for a time, the depth that Multiplayer mode adds to the game is staggering. I think you can say it vice versa, a Multiplayer game has a very common way to start and end. Building yourself a base, battle, win or lose haha. A singleplayer game can be fun too, depends on what you can set up and play. I love the original MAX Missions and the Scenario, it took me to the limits. You had your time limits, pressure, a whole new situation every mission. The variety between the games was really something. Quote: ...but I still think that Singleplayer MAX is nothing more than a "bonus" to a game that really shines in Multiplayer by combining the best aspects of turn based strategy and RTS games. I can only think of generalzing things. MAX is a special issue, cause it never really worked in NETWORK Multiplayer, so all we had was Singleplayer. And I like a good designed singleplayer experience and MAX has it. Nothing to say against a good multiplayer experience in MAX though ;D But it has more potential than ever through MAX R. My point is, singleplayer in MAX was great and the new MAX R multiplayer has potential, but its not the full essence of MAX yet.

Sal

Apr 08, 2009 2:53 pm

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

Quote:

I think of MAX as first and foremost a Multiplayer game. While it can be enjoyable in Singleplayer for a time, the depth that Multiplayer mode adds to the game is staggering.

I think you can say it vice versa, a Multiplayer game has a very common way to start and end. Building yourself a base, battle, win or lose haha.
A singleplayer game can be fun too, depends on what you can set up and play. I love the original MAX Missions and the Scenario, it took me to the limits. You had your time limits, pressure, a whole new situation every mission. The variety between the games was really something.

Quote:

...but I still think that Singleplayer MAX is nothing more than a "bonus" to a game that really shines in Multiplayer by combining the best aspects of turn based strategy and RTS games.

I can only think of generalzing things. MAX is a special issue, cause it never really worked in NETWORK Multiplayer, so all we had was Singleplayer. And I like a good designed singleplayer experience and MAX has it. Nothing to say against a good multiplayer experience in MAX though ;D But it has more potential than ever through MAX R.

My point is, singleplayer in MAX was great and the new MAX R multiplayer has potential, but its not the full essence of MAX yet.

AlphaRebel	Aug 19, 2009 3:44 am
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story I take it the AI thing has died another death then? I don't know about the time thing, on MAX single player you should restrict yourself to some pretty punishing time limits

AlphaRebel

Aug 19, 2009 3:44 am

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

I take it the AI thing has died another death then?

I don't know about the time thing, on MAX single player you should restrict yourself to some pretty punishing time limits Wink

Leo	Aug 21, 2009 1:49 pm
Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story The big weakness of MAX's AI even on expert mode is that it's too cautious, slowly expanding from the initial settlement. Consequently it doesn't grasp resources actively enough, so it lags behind in development; it doesn't set up real outposts, so it loses control; it packs the buildings so thickly that the units can't circulate; it lets you build your defenses. If the source code hadn't disappeared, maybe it would be enough to tweak a few parameters for risk taking to make it more challenging.

Leo

Aug 21, 2009 1:49 pm

Subject: Re: Single Player / Funny story

The big weakness of MAX's AI even on expert mode is that it's too cautious, slowly expanding from the initial settlement. Consequently it doesn't grasp resources actively enough, so it lags behind in development; it doesn't set up real outposts, so it loses control; it packs the buildings so thickly that the units can't circulate; it lets you build your defenses. If the source code hadn't disappeared, maybe it would be enough to tweak a few parameters for risk taking to make it more challenging.