Mechanized Assault & eXploration Reloaded

Subject: Are subs overpowered?

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Me and friends started playing maxr. I always though of subs as being overpowered in original game, and it seems its the case here. Now, the question is: are they really, or simply we play the game not good enough?
The thing is, when one player builds shipyard enough turns before any other can, he can build subs and prevent other players from building anything on water. We tried it a couple of times and it worked always. Subs are cheap, and except ground attack plane i think there is no other unit capable of destroying them (if the player hasnt built his own shipyard). And except corvette - there is no unit capabe of detecting subs? This means the player using subs can hunt for any constructors/ engineers that are in water, surface and attack. Even if the other player has ground attack planes to destroy those subs, it will be an exchange of casaulties. Sub for engineer/constructor. Considering that eng/const would be loaded with materials, this pays of for the sub owner. It prevents the defending player from building fleet, bridges and accesing minerals on water. Gives the sub owner control over water... So, how can this be countered?
If there is no good counter, i though of adding sonar like detection to scanner air planes ("awac" was it?). There is xml file with units, would copying value from corvette's xml file into awac's file with 'detect stealth units' work?

Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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Hi qunny and welcome to our bord,

I think we had this topic already at some time but i am not able to find it right now. Maybe it was in german i do not realy remember.

Anyway about the xml:
Yes you just need to copy the "<Can_Detect_Stealth_On Num="2"/>" tag to the "<Abilities>" node in the submarines data.xml.
But make sure that this change has to made on the server AND ALL clients. There is no check in the game yet, so it chould lead to some strange behavior if you do not do this ^^

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Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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Ok, thanks.
To submarines data or to awac's?

Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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Ehm, the awac's one of course. sry ^^

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Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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It's about strategy.. if you're going to attack on the water you have to be fast.

It's the very same with air dominance. You have to be the first. And keep up.

What's a submarine worth when it comes to planes or ground vehicles? What when your opponent simply does not care about the water and stays on the land sending you heavy artillery or bombers?

On a water map it's everyones first job to build a shipyard. It's quite easy and effective especially in the beginning to protect it with sea mines. Also always have some bombers in the air on sentry to protect the shipyard from subs.

Seriously.. if you hack the xml to foil your opponents strategy you'll put out the fun of it for your players. Learn to counter it prober or you'll soon play alone. MAX (and also MAXR) is really good balanced. It's amazing what you can do with the right strategy, some strategic upgrades and a portion luck.

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Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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Nobody has said anything about foiling anyone's strategy. It was discussed with the people i play with and everyone agreed on that. Actually, it was sparkled by another player i played against and resulted with a discussion. It has nothing to do with cheating / editing files behind others backs to unfairly gain adventage, and i do not like you lecturing me on that.
We haven't played the game that much, so we are not experts on the matter, thus we are asking about it. Both on how to do it and if its a good choice for the fun of the game.
Now on the matter of 'strategy' and how we've seen it (which your words seem to confirm):
If you play on a sea heavy map then getting shipyard is the priority mostly because of subs. If not for them, you could calculate in the risk of having other player gain sea dominance (with regular surface ships) in favour of for example going yourself with one more mining station if you are lucky to get the minerals near by at start, or whatever other strategy that comes to your mind. Without subs, you would still be able to build shipyard later on, since you can fight surface ships from land (or in edited xml file: fight subs with awacs + ground planes). And this is what i would think of as 'strategy'. Making decissions.
In case of sea heavy map with subs like they are now, i would call this a must. No-brainer. You have to do it, or you can forget about sea fighting (lowering chances to win the game by far).
As i said, we are relatively new to the game. Played the original a couple of times, but that's all. However, with our experience so far, it actually seems that there is deeper strategy without sea dominant subs than with them. "Must have's"...are not too good.
I asked about counter strategy hoping there might be a way to counter subs without having to build shipyard on my first turn.
Sub detecting awacs may make subs too weak on the other hand, but i think its better than no brainers. You can escort subs with anti air ships too. The best thing i would like is to have awacs have two scan ranges, one for regular scanning, second for sub detection. The other could be calculated as for example 1/3 of the first one, rounded down, so if i remember correctly it would be scan range of 4 (14/3). This would give the defending player some chances to play the game if he doesnt build shipyard at start, while still mainitning subs relatively powerful.

Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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Slow it down. I mentioned with no word "behind the back of your opponents". I'd just be pissed if subs would be my strategy. If your group agrees with changing the XML you're free to go of course

I'd add the sub detection to the APC in that case. They have only a minor scan radius but can drive from land into the sea (or scan from the coast). This way you could have a chance to gain sea control (again). However subs should be able to detect APCs as well in that case or you'll get some sort of "hidden sonar" not knowing why or from where your sub was just detected.

An AWAC detecting subs would be way to overpowered IMHO. You can increase it's scanning range very very cheap and subs would become totally meaningless. Subs are also very fragile, remember that

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Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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Oh, thanks
That's a great idea with apcs. We'll probably go with them on our next game.
Btw, its a great remake. Thanks for making this.

Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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you're welcome.

If you want to help give our SVN version a shot and report bugs on the tracker.

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Subject: Re: Are subs overpowered?

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This discussion almost got out of hand here!

I totally agree with Beko on this one (in terms of strategy over XML hack - regardless of whether your friends are happy with it or not). There are so many strategies that can be employed to ensure that subs don't cause you a problem. Just for the completeness of the forum, I will list my thoughts in point format to make it easier.

1. Even playing as the Crimson Tide clan the fastest you can build a shipyard is 8 turns against a standard 15. There's no way that you can (generally) build a shipyard, produce a submarine(s) and then send it across to the other person's base so quickly that they can't counter it.

2. When choosing a landing site, look for a site that has a natural harbour in which to use to minimise where subs can enter your waters. Most maps have this (if they are a water-based map) so choose your position wisely.

3. After your shipyard has been constructed, unless there is an obvious air threat (in which case you should produce some Escorts) then you should produce a couple of Corvettes to protect it. That's normally enough to counter any sub threat. Don't forget to put them on sentry though!

4. Subs cant attack land-based targets. However, they're great spies! Therefore, you might want to spread some more Escorts around your shoreline to discourage an enemy from spying on you. A tactic I use it to occasionally move the Corvette a few spaces forward and back again to check that they haven't pitched a sub just out of detection range.

5. Upgrade your Corvettes! It doesn't have to be much as they have a higher range than subs and it's very expensive for subs to increase their range to counter them. Therefore, if you think that there will be a sea battle ensure that you upgrade your Corvettes.

6. Upgrade the armour on Shipyards and mines so that subs take longer to destroy them. Hover some ground attack planes above them (on sentry) and then you really should be able to react before their sub can do major damage. If you haven't reached that stage yet, do the same but with your engineers and constructors.

I love using subs, but they are an expensive toy if you want to formulate a proper strategy with them as their speed, range and shots are poor and they become expensive to upgrade. However, they are cheap and quick to produce and there's nothing better than sinking an undefended fleet of expensive missile cruisers as they come across to attack you!

I hope that this is of some help, but please do not take a harsh tone with Beko as he dedicates a lot of his time to this project and is extremely helpful. He wasn't accusing you, rather warning you that it's probably better not to mess with the XML! :-)

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